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Brodie Van Wagenen Should Have Been Fired With Carlos Beltran

On Thursday, the New York Mets took the nearly unprecedented decision of firing Carlos Beltran before he met with his roster let alone managed one game. It was not only an embarrassing day for the organization, but It also overshadowed Mike Piazza being honored with 31 Piazza Drive in St. Lucie.

Somehow, Mets General Manager Brodie Van Wagenen would make things worse, much worse.

During the ensuing conference call confirming the firing of Beltran, and yes, he clarified it was a firing discrediting the “mutually agreed” press releases, he showed how haphazardly he has handled the entire process of hiring a manager.

First and foremost, Van Wagenen claimed no previous knowledge of widespread information about the allegations about the Houston Astros cheating.

There were reports about the Astros getting caught during the 2018 ALCS. There were rumors throughout the game long before that. However, Van Wagenen who represented players like Nori Aoki, who was on that Astros team says he knew nothing.

Taking him at face value, he eventually knew about it because of Mike Fiers statements confirming the sign stealing. Subsequently, there was a report in The Athletic specifically implicating Beltran. Knowing that, Van Wagenen said he still did not inquire further with Beltran.

More than that, after Fiers public statements, the MLB investigation, and various reports, Van Wagenen traded for Beltran’s former teammate Jake Marisnick.

Van Wagenen said in the conference call he did not speak with Beltran or Marisnick about the investigation, and he did nothing to brace the organization for the potential situation where he may have to fire his manager.

Taking Van Wagenen at face value, he ignored prevalent information, and he purposefully left the organization ill prepared for what they eventually did in firing Beltran.

Of course, much of this does not pass the smell test. That goes double when you consider he is good friends with former Astros manager AJ Hinch.

As an aside, during the conference call, Van Wagenen admitted to speaking with Hinch, which based on when it happened, may have been in violation of Major League Baseball’s rulings.

Van Wagenen has painted himself as someone who either didn’t know or didn’t want to know. That is something entirely unacceptable from a team’s general manager. That goes double when it happens in the course of the hiring of your manager who is a team’s most public representative.

Simply put, what happened with the Mets can’t happen.

They can’t have a GM unaware of widely held information. They can’t have a GM who does nothing to be proactive. It’s even worse when he has the means and connections to do it.

Thursday was as bad a day as it got for the Mets. In addition to the embarrassment of firing Beltran and overshadowing the team honoring Piazza, their employee, Jessica Mendoza, attacked Fiers for being a whistleblower. It should be noted Mendoza was hired by Van Wagenen.

Keep in mind, this was the latest embarrassing day under Van Wagenen’s tenure, and it was another day when Van Wagenen seemed incapable of handling bad situations.

When Mickey Callaway screamed at a reporter and Jason Vargas threatened the reporter, no team suspensions were issued. It took multiple times to get Callaway to apologize, and Vargas’ apology was never forthcoming.

We have also seen the reports of Van Wagenen throwing chairs in meetings with his coaching staff. Worse yet, Van Wagenen has broken MLB rules by texting in-game decisions to the clubhouse.

While some have tried to paint the picture as it was an isolated incident with Jacob deGrom, it wasn’t. It happened on multiple occasions. When you look at Van Wagenen’s tenure, he’s already broken MLB rules, and he hired a manager who had broken rules.

Even putting aside what suspicion could arise from that, he has shown he’s not up to the job of being the general manager of the Mets.

In his short tenure, he got the Mets wrapped up into a scandal where his team was not being investigated or implicated in any wrongdoing. He has been ill prepared to handle problems which have arisen with his team, has broken MLB rules, and behind closed doors, he is throwing chairs.

Before you even address his poor player decisions, Van Wagenen has shown himself to be unaware of what has been happening in baseball and has made the Mets ill equipped and ill prepared to handle situations which the team should have seen coming.

Remember, Beltran was purportedly Van Wagenen’s hire, and his failure to conduct the NEEDED vetting before, during, and after embarrassed the organization and led to Beltran’s firing. Seeing Van Wagenen’s tenure and conduct, he should have followed Beltran out the door.

75 thoughts on “Brodie Van Wagenen Should Have Been Fired With Carlos Beltran”

  1. oldbackstop says:

    Hey, look, I think BVW did not do well in the press conferenve, I just listened to all 49 minutes.

    There was a key moment, and you missed the point, but don’t feel bad, because the media did as well.

    Let’s say That the day after The Athletic comes out, Brodie calls Beltran in. This meeting better be on the record, because everybody is selling out everybody in this mess, there are no secrets or confidences being kept. Look how Beltran through his college roommate Hinch under the bus. So only a child…or a reporter….or a blogger…with no legal or business experience would think Brodie could sidle up to Beltran and whisper “hey, on the down low, what happened? You can trust me.”

    So, no, that meeting is with the General Counsel and the head of Human Resources and both Wilpons and a stenographer.

    So how does it go:

    Mets General Counsel: “Carlos, was their electronic cheating with the Astros?”

    Beltran: “Absolutely not, we stole signs, but no electronics were involved.” (his story to the media.)”
    Beltran: “Yes, I heard something about that, but I didn’t partake.”
    Beltran: “I gotta be honest. Holy shtt, you should have seen it! There was a monitor in the clubhouse, and a camera out in center, and we were just killing the ball. We should try it here!”

    So, here is the important teaching moment. Now they are in possession of KNOWLEDGE about the major baseball scandal of the decade. do they go out to the media and say

    “Carlos says he knew nothing about it and he is our guy and LFGM!”
    “Carlos Beltran was fired today, and we can’t tell you why, but you are going to crap your pants when you hear.”
    “Carlos says he didn’t do it, but maybe others did, or something, because there was banging and guys running around and laughing.”

    No. You want to be able to say what Brodie did “This was behavior before he became a Met, we are directing him to be honest when interviewed by MLB, We are letting them lead the investigation. They have assured us that no one will be suspended or fined or punished in any way who was a player at the time.”

    If Carlos comes to them wanting to unburden his soul you put your hand up and walk out of the room. You don’t want to become part of the investigations. His statements to you would be evidence, at the least, and witness-tampering at the most. He is involving you as an accessory after the fact.

    It is called “I don’t want to know,” and it happens in corporations every day.

    1. Rich Hausig says:

      Excellent analysis Backstop. Culpable deniability, its how things are done by those who can afford it. Ask our new owner, that was his defense when he paid the 1.2 billion fine.

      But stop and think about this for a moment. They have known for a while that this was turning ugly and the commissioner is not going to blindside the Mets, they are victims here and he works FOR them. Its not a leak or a crime to update them and Beltran had immunity. Im sure he and his lawyers (who are probably the Mets lawyers too because Beltran was in no position to argue) were updated regularly. So they have known for weeks, Id bet my house on that.

      One would think they have a Plan A B and C ready to execute based how the fallout is landing. Had Boston waited a week to fire Cora maybe it would have been enough time to take the heat off Beltran. Personally I do not think he needed to or should have been fired. All righteous indignity aside, he was not in a position of authority and that matters. Secondly, sorry this is not steroids, which KILL children or gambling which could KILL the sport, its cheating.. come on. Think John McGraw ever cheated? How about Billy Martin? Whitey Herzog? Casey Stengel? They all cheated and all the players cheat, its part of being that level of competitor. Any of them can be my manager any day. Punish them and move on.

      But I digress. Based on the story thats being told Brodie is responsible to his stock owners and shareholders (the fans) not to leave us without a manger at this point in the off season. I luv Keith and I hope he´s right but I think this is a problem. We all agree this group is about its chemistry and direction. Thats why Alonso got out in front of this as quickly as possible, (see his SM today, we are blessed to have him) and this brings the opposite. How does Betances feel about his choice of teams today? Its not a world-ender but YOU CANT LET SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPEN ON YOUR WATCH. Generals get replaced for errors of omission more than they do for losing and Brodie is the general. The team has been embarrassed, again, and needs a fixer, again. Brodie should go. But he wont because then Jeffy-Dark Shades looks bad too, again.

      This would never happen but what do you think?

      You call Bobby V. and reverse engineer this thing. Omar becomes interim GM and we see how that goes while Bobby V deals with the game managing and the front office “collaborates” with the manager, the way it should be. Bobby V would win the world series with this group in this moment. Think Churchill, from May – Oct 1940. 😉

      1. metsdaddy says:

        Fact is no matter what Brodie knew or didn’t know, despite his player and Astros contacts, he failed to prepare the Mets for the fall-out.

        That’s his job, and he completely failed to do it.

        1. oldbackstop says:

          MD. how do you know he didn’t prepare the Mets for the “fall-out”scenarios? You think they were just thunderstruck that Beltran was implicated and ran around the conference room in a Chinese fire drill?

          Of course not, Jesus. No, they had everybody, lawyers etc, war gaming out potential scenarios. He was gone in a few days after the report…maybe the plan necessitated gathering more info and seeing the fan’s opinion about how the whole meshuganeh went down. And it is a bit of courtesy to Beltran to give it a few days to make it look like he wasn’t a serial murderer and it was a little bit of pondering they had to do.

          This is akin to MD’s blasting BVW as a coward for not having a press conference to take arrows about that week’s W/L and instead flying up to Cespedes and beginning the process that saved the Mets $tens of millions of dollars. Which, since MD didn’t know about it for nearly a year, fueled a half of year of articles about BVW’s budgeting. You don’t know anything about the data BVW has at his disposal, MD.

          Perhaps the Mets FO had their fallback candidate identified in November, and their ducks were all in a row. You don’t know. You have no idea. I don’t know. If there candidate or candidates are currently employed, that is a step. They can’t have been “preparing” by going around negotiating with other team’s employees — that would have been on the rumor mill in a hot second in December, and have everybody pissed, including MLB and Beltran.

          “Source: Mets Approach (Nationals Bogar, Brewers Murphy. ESPN’s Perez) in case Beltran Is Out.”

          You know who would leak that information? Bogar, Murphy and Perez.

          1. metsdaddy says:

            If the Mets were prepared for this, they would already have a manager in place.

            I’ll note again Van Wagenen continues to show he’s completely incapable of doing this job, and in response to his repeated failures, you choose to defend him and attack me.

    2. metsdaddy says:

      You’re operating under a completely false premise and want to have it both ways.

      One of two things is true here:

      1. He’s being honest and didn’t know anything or do his due diligence; or

      2. He knew what everyone else knew and proceeded anyway.

      Both are fireable offenses.

    3. Rae says:

      The Wilpon are still the primary owners of the Mets so they have the option to hire or fire whomever they want. Some GM’s are still floating out there in the 2020 MLBl baseball void. The Wilpon’s need to pick at acting GM or they could let Omar handle 2020 since he is a former GM who is already employed by the Wilpon’s aka Mets. I hope the Wilpon’s can see that they must remove, fire, release whatever they want to call it but they need to immediately get rid of Brodie Van Dumbass because he is a real detriment to both the MLB, and the Mets.ownership. Brodie Moranagnen needs to be fired post haste. The Mets have options they can hire Dave Dombrowski, promote Omar Minaya or find someone else to be the GM but Brodie needs to be put out with the trash for his egotism and blathering incompetence.

      1. metsdaddy says:

        Steve Cohen needs to step in and say, “I’m spending $2.1 billion on this franchise, and I want that incompetent GM gone.”

  2. Mac says:

    Why would you fire him now? Makes little sense to do anything until Cohen takes over. Cohen will want BVW or his own guy. You let it play out until next season. Otherwise you run the risk of firing BVW, hiring new guy or 8-15months and then firing and hiring a new guy. Too much change. Just hold-off until then.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      You need to fire him because he’s incompetent, and you can’t let him screw up hiring another manager.

      As for Cohen, let him have input.

      1. Rich Hausig says:

        I agree totally with you, you dont survive this kind of mistake. Unless, as in this case, Jeffy is culpable too. And thats what is saving Brodie. You will know they did know, as I say they have known the whole way, when they name Luis Rojas or another coach as manager. If they are going outside the candidate would be interviewing now. Two other teams need managers now too, the due diligence on the available guys has been done because they interviewed before or in the case of Dusty or Buck they are well known.

        Its gonna come out that they knew weeks in advance because now everyone is digging. Brodie and Jeffy are the liars here. I would agree they have the fallout scenarios planned. This is the spot where you make your choice and dont let him out of the building until you have him. Ill say it again, a new manager has a lot of work to do to get ready. A veteran can implement it faster obviously except for one problem. These are not his coaches. I can see Dusty working around that, I dont know about Buck. But its irrelevant because they are going to choose someone who is here already and thats a big mistake. That manger will always be in Beltrans shadow and with whats happened he will be wading into the deep end of the pool and a negative spotlight right away. If you go outside and experienced he will be seen as the white hat riding in to save the day. Perception is not everything but it helps get you off on the right foot which critical in this situation.

        1. metsdaddy says:

          One important thing with Jeff is this is no longer his job in perpetuity. He now has to prove himself, and seeing this fiasco, he’s not impressing anyone.

  3. oldbackstop says:

    Hi Rich,

    Good points.

    1. I think, or I’m sure, the lawyers running this at MLB said to everybody that testified “do not make any comment or statement about your testimony here today.” It so common as to be a cliche…grand juries, we’ve all seen it on TV. And I don’t think MLB selectively lets out inside information to select teams ahead of its report. The Mets were told “we aren’t punishing players” BVW said that in the press conference, and that was all they needed to know. Do they want to give the Mets some factoid and watch them can Beltran, when they still are trying to gather info and get people to talk? I’m sure they told the clubs “we have the report pending, do not make any employment changes with these five witnesses until the report comes out.” In fact, it was probably a directive.

    2. The Mets were in a uniquely bad position (as usual, right?) They had a former player that wouldn’t be punished but had blood all over his hands. And he is the new face of the team. Firing Beltran was a no-brainer, should have done it when the other guys were canned, it would have not gotten the focus it did.

    3. What if Brodie and the Mets were given inside information before the report was issued? Remember those trade rumors with the Red Sox for Betts and the Astros for Correa? Maybe selling off a star for prospects looks like a more attractive scenario when you are facing a little rebuild under new management.

    4. Or lets say the Mets are whispered “The Astros manager is the fall guy, don’t worry about Carlos.” Well….would Brodie pick up the phone and call AJ Hinch? What do you think?:

    https://metsmerizedonline.com/2018/10/brodie-van-wagenen-has-a-fan-and-friend-in-a-j-hinch.html/

    And Brodie said in the press conference he has spoken to Hinch.

    It is a very legitimate line of inquiry to ask why Brodie didn’t know about what were characterized as “rumblings” about the Astros scandal BEFORE Beltran was hired.. All but the most casual fans knew of rumors. That is the only sin here, and that was what the reporters focused on, rightfully. Frankly, while it happened on his watch, I’m sure it was a lieutenant who was charged with that vetting, and he should be on the curb.

    I’m not going to bother parsing MD’s post, but it was going to not be his stupidest one until he reels off every bad thing that happened on his watch like Callaway yelling at a reporter Hey MD, I noticed you stopped listing the Cano trade as bad judgement by Brodie. What changed your mind?

    For saying that the question was not even asked prior to hiring, and that alone, BVW’s firing would be justifiable. But that doesn’t mean it is mandatory, or even wise.

    And given his moves and the team popping nine wins in his first year, I think the Wilpons are going to give him a pass.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      As usual, you attack me and defend BVW who increasingly proves he’s incapable of doing the job.

      I’ll note if you’re going to say I’ve stopped saying the Cano trade was a bad one, as usual you’re making stuff up.

      The Cano trade remains monumentally stupid much like your comments.

      1. Rich Hausig says:

        I do however agree with MD. Brodie gotta go, the Wilpons too. Lets hope this speeds up the sale and doesnt make Cohen want to bale out

        1. metsdaddy says:

          Cohen isn’t backing out of the deal because of the inept running of the franchise. The only thing which could is the state of the financials.

    2. Rich Hausig says:

      I think all this is staged. Listen to Brodie and Jeff repeating the lawyer speak when it comes to how they came to the decision, “we had no prior knowledge, but no one lied and I didnt have sex with that woman….. god they cant even act the part well.

      Why would they not have known? Most times suspensions and fines are negotiated with the offender before they are enacted to be sure he doesnt try to appeal or dare I say it, take them to court. The Mets were victims here and the commish has no mandate to hide his findings from the owners. The last thing MLB wants is to surprise their owners especially in something like this. They knew Carlos spoke to MLB, had immunity to do so and there is no chance they just sat by and waited to find out when we did. They knew everything and they are entitled to know it, this is not a secret grand jury, its an internal investigation.

      1. metsdaddy says:

        I have to believe they absolutely knew, and if they did know, what does it say about them?

  4. oldbackstop says:

    My….ENOUGH as if we were grading MD’s judgement as GM…

    MD says BVW should be immediately fired for hiring Beltran, yet… (this article)

    MD says “the Mets have zero basis to fire him (Beltran)” (the last article)

    MD says our 2018 All Star utilityman Jed Lowrie should be DFAed for being hurt last year, and we bear the $9 million remaining on his contract.

    MD says since the Mets have had a list of poor judgement/immoral (he lists them) calls in the past, they shouldn’t fire Beltran (continuing it, I guess.) Two wrongs necessitated future wrongs, I guess.

    MD says that to win back the fan’s optimism, we should appoint Luis Rojas, who reached the AA level of managing and whose last gig in 2018 was fifth in a six team AA division. Oh! And we should name him “interim manager” for the whole season, because that will quell any complaints about not having a firm plan for the future. Bonus for anyone finding a team, ever, going to 1876, thousand upon thousands of manager hires, that deemed someone “interim” for the whole season after a winter hire.

    Oddly, the Cano trade has fallen out of MD’s stump speech against BVW today. That is because last night I posted a link to the following MD piece from last winter:

    http://metsdaddy.com/2018/11/mets-should-be-willing-to-take-on-robinson-canos-contract/

    It is required reading, and, given MD’s powerful contacts, may even have been the genesis of the idea to trade for Cano.

    MD’s proposed a deal for Cano (before it happened, to keep that straight.) that went like this.

    On prospects, we send Pete Alonso and Dom Smith and Gimenez. .. (rather than what Brodie sent, A baller Kelenic and 24 year old Bautista, who tallied an 11.00 ERA when brought up by Seattle?) we also send our starting RFer Bruce and our fifth SP, Vargas.

    We take on @$171 million in salary commitments in getting Cano, Diaz and Haniger. No money came back in MD’s proposed trade.

    We know Diaz and Cano had poor seasons. Haniger was done due to injury on June 6, when he was batting .220. Haniger, Cano and Diaz totalled 1.1 bWAR in 2019.

    The guys departing in your deal Bruce, Vargas, Dom, Gimenez, and Alonso totalled 9.1 bWAR in 2019. Their salary commitments were >$50 million.
    =================================

    That is the last two weeks.
    Read the link and think about how MD would have graded a GM making that trade.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      I wouldn’t be so bold in flaunting your poor reading comprehension and logic skills.

      1. oldbackstop says:

        Correct me. No, start a new article: “From The Vault: What I Would Have Done In The Cano Deal”

        http://metsdaddy.com/2018/11/mets-should-be-willing-to-take-on-robinson-canos-contract/

        1. metsdaddy says:

          What I thought was spelled out in the article and was substantially different than what BVW did.

          1. oldbackstop says:

            Me too!

            BVW didn’t send Dominic Smith, Peter Alsonso and Gimenez plus a starting RFer and a starting pitcher for Cano’s full salary, Diaz (we know about them) and Haniger.

            Would you do that trade today? As you have blasted BVW for his trade almost daily, tell us how your trade was better.

            BVW:
            Sends Bruce, Swarzak, Kelenic, Bautista,
            Gets: Cano, Diaz, $20 million

            MD:
            Sends: Jay Bruce, Pete Alonso, Dom Smith, Gimenez, Vargas
            Gets: Cano, Diaz, Haniger, no money

            Is that not accurate?

          2. metsdaddy says:

            They get Haniger and keep their pitching depth. They also have Cano at first where he belongs.

            They also keep their best prospect in Kelenic.

            This isn’t hard. What I proposed is vastly superior.

    2. Rich Hausig says:

      MD says BVW should be immediately fired for hiring Beltran, yet… (this article)

      MD says “the Mets have zero basis to fire him (Beltran)” (the last article)
      I actually agree with him. The other managers are suspended for the year, Beltran is not suspended. I dont think this is a big deal as I said before, they all cheat, punish and move on. Beltran is a only a casualty because they think it diminishes him with the fans, not because of what he did. The sad part is the fans would have let this go, its management we hate.

      But Brodie goes because he hired a guy that he had to fire before he ever managed a game. Whatever master plan he had for the off season is now F´d and the team is embarrassed. I have supported him until now. This is over the top and proves hes in over his head for me. Are the coaches staying or going? What about the whole stand by the players refrain? That doesnt apply to the manager we hired because hes one of them? I understand people may see it differently but thats my take.

  5. Peter Hyatt says:

    Broadie is not going to hire a strong manager who can throw a chair back at him.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      This is my favorite comment ever made on this site

  6. oldbackstop says:

    And when ROY Alonso is there hitting 53 HRs, Dom Smith has become your favorite non-Met (erm…playing behind Alonso?), and Cano, Haniger and Diaz have their 2019 faceplant, you’ll still be loving your trade, although you have been bitching about the money ever since, and yours cost tens of millions more.

    You’re shameless, in the precise definition of the word.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      This is an odd attack coming from someone who thinks it was a good trade and believes BVW has done a good job.

      If I were you, I’d look up the word hypocrite

  7. oldbackstop says:

    The Mets need a high profile, popular guy to restore faith.

    If it were me, I’d fly to California and grovel at David Wright’s feet, giving him whatever he wanted, including a piece of the team.

    Failing that, I’d look at Robin Ventura or Super Joe.

    It isn’t the time for some whoshe learning the ropes.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      No, they need the right guy.

      That’s Luis Rojas.

      1. oldbackstop says:

        Who? A no-name rookie?

        1. metsdaddy says:

          You’re advocating for Wright, a man with zero coaching experience.

  8. oldbackstop says:

    Haniger, by the way, is very Jed Lowrie like. All Star in 2018, suffered a bunch of ailments in 2019.

    Haniger fouled a ball off his nut sack on June 6 and suffered a ruptured testicle. Then he hurt his back. He never played another down. Now he is entering his Age 29. In your deal, basically, you traded Alonso for him.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      “He never played another down.”

      I’m not even remotely surprised you don’t know the difference between baseball and football.

      1. Oldbackstop says:

        I was being stylistic, I knew it was over your head.

        1. metsdaddy says:

          No, that’s not it.

          Nice try

          1. Oldbackstop says:

            Yeah, so I wasn’t kidding when I said down. You caught me.

            Desperate…Sad!!!

          2. metsdaddy says:

            Whatever you need to tell yourself

  9. Oldbackstop says:

    Again, I believe Brodie’s firing could be justifiable. His bestie was Astro’ s manager Hinch, and the Astros were getting press like this in October 2018:

    Astros May Have Been Cheating All Season

    https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2018/10/17/17986646/astros-dugout-photographer-red-sox-indians-athletics-mlb-playoffs

    That came up on the third page of a google search, pushed down by the recent news. It would have been page 1 on “Astros cheating.”

    When I say it was justifiable, I certainly don’t mean it is wise or necessary, and I wouldn’t do it. It would throw a competing team in disarray into a team in utter disarray, short both GM and manager.

    Given BVW’s 9 win boost in his first year, and his masterful Mariners trade in which he avoided trading Alonso despite a call for it from one blogger, I think he is doing a great job.

    Lastly, for those of you in their right minds, how can MD shrilly defend Beltran as a great hire who shouldn’t be fired, then want to fire the guy that hired him because he hired him?

    1. metsdaddy says:

      Still defending the guy who has done nothing well and instead attacking me.

      1. Oldbackstop says:

        Brodie: +9 wins

        MD: shoulda thrown Alonso into the Cano trade

        1. metsdaddy says:

          Trolling

  10. Blair M. Schirmer says:

    “Brodie Van Wagenen Should Have Been Fired With Carlos Beltran”

    —–I’m not a neutral judge, given my dislike for Van Wags, but firing him and giving Showalter the reins as GM and manager would be an interesting way to go, if he can still handle both jobs at his age.

    Another alternative would be to hire Show to GM and let him pick his manager from the list of candidates the Wilpons approved, assuming they have to be permitted say in the process. If it’s going to take 2-3 years to unwind the Wilpons from ownership, if I’m Cohen I’d like some assurance we’re not going to see another Cano-Diaz fiasco.

    Has Showalter gotten on board the analytics train? That’s essential. Otherwise, and if Wags has to continue as GM, the team should just move on to its 2nd choice to manage. If this drags on it’s probably because Beltran was some sort of compromise choice between Wags, Jeff, and Fred, and now they have no idea how to do this to everyone’s comparable dissatisfaction.

    1. Blair M. Schirmer says:

      Btw, Syndergaard appears to have returned to the same workout routine that led him to miss most of 2017 when he showed up highly muscled and promptly tore a lat. Those images appeared in my twitter feed and I promptly reduced my projection from 85 to 84 wins for 2020. Excessive? Maybe. Petty? Perhaps. But when’s the last time extreme workouts were reputed to have helped a pitcher throw a baseball?

      1. Blair M. Schirmer says:

        Hey, sorry to talk about baseball, 🙂 but I was just noodling through Baseball Savant and noticed that Rosario was average in the field from May on, and that Alonso was only -7 in Statcast’s infield outs related to average. That last is really not bad at all, and certainly a number you can live with, while if Rosario keeps it up and is an average fielder, that’s gold given where he was in 2018 and in April 2019. Interesting–Rosario was -7 in his lateral move towards 3B, and +2 moving the other way. Makes sense then that he’d be better with Frazier at 3B, where Frazier could cover some of that ground for him, and that Rosario was at his worst in April when Frazier was out, mostly.

        Ah, but apparently DiSarcina (?) put in some work on his first step in April, so maybe Rosario’s less dependent on Frazier than some thought.

        McNeil was +2 in a very small sample at 3B, and at 0 overall by OAA, and OAA has Cano as -1 in 2019. Is it possible the Mets IF defense will be average in 2020 except for Alonso, and will be around -7 with him? That’s not bad. Not bad at all, considering.

        Baseball Savant also has Nimmo at +1 in LF, CF, and RF; Marisnick as +8 in CF; Conforto was +7 in RF, and -1 in CF.

        Huh. The Mets with an average defense, overall, when Marisnick’s in CF?

        1. Oldbackstop says:

          Yeah’!
          Great point!

          Plus, of Rosario 17 errors last year, 7 of them happened one week on sv OP

          1. Oldbackstop says:

            One week in April, that was supposed to read.

          2. Blair M. Schirmer says:

            Ouch! I’d forgotten that week, that had the team talking about a permanent move to CF. A good chance he’s past that. Five months of solid, average defense month-to-month at age 23 doesn’t feel like a fluke.

            Fwiw, Robert Murray is tweeting that the Mets are reopening Marte talks with the Pirates. Really hope they don’t do it. Nimmo has more upside at this point, and with Marisnick on hand the team has a more reliable cushion behind the front three than they’ve had during the last couple of years.

          3. metsdaddy says:

            It’s a typical Mets smokescreen. I’ll believe it when I see it

          4. Oldbackstop says:

            @Blair, yeah Marte does nothing for me, unless we get him in return for for filling the soda machine.

            He is going into Age 31 at a speed position. Last year was the first negative dWAR in his career (-0.7). His bat still seems lively, but he is a candidate to be moved to a corner in a few years, and we have plenty of them.

            I’m not a Nimmo fan, but I value him over Marte. He is still improving and he is cheap.

        2. metsdaddy says:

          If you dig through the numbers, Rosario had issues going right, and Frazier’s range going to his left counterbalanced that.

      2. Oldbackstop says:

        May be sacrilege, but I would certainly move on the right deal for Syndergaard. He’s said and done some stupid things that really make me question his future. This is just one of them.

        It would have to be for a young proven ace plus plus….

      3. metsdaddy says:

        If you look, his training routine is significantly different than that. There’s more agility and less bulk

    2. metsdaddy says:

      Problem with just going to your second choice is the proximity to the season, and the Mets admission they screwed up the vetting process

  11. Oldbackstop says:

    So, listen up, MD this is a TEACHING MOMENT, since you have this black and white idea of the ethics here.

    You are rookie JD Davis on Aug 5, 2017 and you are informed of the system. What do you?

    You are cornered by reporters on Dec. 4th and asked if you knew of the system what do you say?

    Focus here. Answer the questions without some sophomoric platitude.

    1. metsdaddy says:

      He cheated.

      Plain and simple.

      1. Oldbackstop says:

        So you, the rookie player JD, would have exposed the Astros scheme his first day in the majors.

        How would you have done it? Press conference? Media release?

        1. metsdaddy says:

          Knowledge of something isn’t cheating.

          Cheating is cheating.

  12. Oldbackstop says:

    Knowledge of cheating without revealing it or stopping it is just as much a crime.

    For the fifth time….what would YOU have done on August 5th 2017 and December 5 2019?

    I have my answer… I’ll give it after you man up and be specific

    1. metsdaddy says:

      No, knowing of something and not revealing it is not a crime.

      I’ve also answered your question, which is a purposeful distraction from the point.

      If you cheat and get caught, you should be punished for it.

      The Mets aren’t punishing Davis or Marisnick like they did Beltran.

      1. Oldbackstop says:

        That is because he is in a different role. And those roles were delineated by MLB.

        WTF is it you want? You want the Mets to fine them? Cut them?

        1. metsdaddy says:

          When you fire Beltran, you, as an organization, are saying you will not be a party to cheating.

          When you fire Beltran, you must then not go into the 2020 season with Marisnick or Davis on your roster.

          1. oldbackstop says:

            No. Beltran was fired because keeping him would generate hundreds of negative stories all year. Even since he was fired new revelations are coming out. Buzzers under the uniform.

            Watch how Bergman and Altulve just got their ass kicked yesterday::

            https://nypost.com/2020/01/18/alex-bregman-denies-astros-buzzer-ploy-gets-shredded-by-pitcher/

            Now the Red Sox are under investigation for the same thing in 2018. JBJ was cornered for that article and had to hem and haw.

            If Beltran was managing the Mets, he would be the poster child for someone who didn’t get suffer any repercussions. He would be in every story. When punishments came down he would be cited by everybody as someone who get away with it (by ratting)

            All, from a Mets fan who has to watch this all season, for what? A rookie manager?
            It was a kingness to Beltran to let him out of his contract, or fire him, whatever.

            This is too much blood in the water for media sharks to not feed all summer. Should JD go? Should Marisnick be fired? Are you advocating that?

            No one here knows what the hell you are saying, MD. This is a live game, and you instead of discussing the action you are saying “Someone should get a hit. That would be good.”

            This from the guy that has bitched about the Cano trade every day, until ut was revealed he had advocated throwing Alonso in from our side.

            Sad! Answer the question! You, MD, are MD Davis. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY??

          2. metsdaddy says:

            The Mets signed Jose Reyes after he beat his wife, so spare me the nonsense and unfounded distraction narratives.

          3. metsdaddy says:

            As for not knowing what I’m saying, I’ve been perfectly clear all along, and people with even rudimentary reading comprehension skills can follow the point.

            If you fire Beltran, you have to send his Astros teammates out the door as well.

  13. oldbackstop says:

    oh, read this from your “players have a gag order and the story will die” statements:

    https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/01/17/houston-astros-ripped-by-mlb-players-for-cheating

    1. metsdaddy says:

      There was a gag order in place, and as usual, you cite the extreme outlier to try to disprove a rule.

      And yes, the story will die down, especially when the season starts. Asserting otherwise is essentially saying you’ve never watched baseball or read a newspaper in your life.

      1. Oldbackstop says:

        Tell me more about the.player gag order, since you have great sources. When did it end, or is it still going? Did the union sue?

        I’ve just given you a dozen engaged players make strong remarks. Are they going to be gagged?

        No. The gag order such as it was, was for “clubs”, and the few players involved. It was requested on the conference call. There are no instances of a club relating it to players.

        I told you this a week ago.

        You have been reduced to giving one word denials because you have to have the last word on every string of comments, no matter how many members prove you wrong. This is wht you only have a handful of followers

        1. metsdaddy says:

          We saw it in play with the Astros at their Fan Fest.

          Again, just because someone violated it doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. Of course, I’m not surprised you can’t comprehend that.

          1. oldbackstop says:

            “We saw it (gag order) in play with the Astros at their Fan Fest.””

            Headline in local Houston media today:
            “Astros players comment on sign stealing scandal during Astros FanFest”

            Can you make a statement that is factually correct anymore?

          2. metsdaddy says:

            I mean you could read and listen to what the players said and the questions they avoided. You could actually focus on the specific things Altuve said, especially in regard to not speaking about certain things right now.

            Instead, you read a headline.

            Seriously, at some point, you should ask yourself if you want to continue to troll me or enter into honest discussions.

          3. Oldbackstop says:

            **When you fire Beltran, you, as an organization, are saying you will not be a party to cheating. When you fire Beltran, you must then not go into the 2020 season with Marisnick or Davis on your roster.***

            Management < Player

            Any moron can understand that. Well@, not everyon…

          4. metsdaddy says:

            Apparently, you completely missed what happened in Houston

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